AlwaysLearning...

On other people's rules:

Friend said that she and dh will not allow dd to go out of the house with my ds if he is dressed that way because it draws "drug users and those types of people" (her words) to you and attracts unwanted attention.

It really doesn't matter why she's saying this or whether you agree, it's her decision for her daughter. She gets to choose what she feels is right for her child just as you do. It's respectful to honor that.

To be respectful of a person, to model respect for our kids, we need to respect their right to choose for their own children. We don't have to agree! Just say, that's her rules. Sometimes it rains. Sometimes stores want us to wear shoes to shop. Sometimes parents get nervous for their children. That's just as things are.

No matter where you go there will be local rules. It's our choice whether to go along with them, flaunt them or not go in. I think we do a disservice to our kids to stomp on others' wishes just because it feels controlling. Courtesy is about honoring someone else's wishes to set the rules for their own place.

Your son could flaunt her rules, maybe change clothes after they left the daughter's house, but what will he have gained? He will have gained control, but at what price? When the daughter's mother finds out, what will he lose?

If your son has a lot of control over his own life then this isn't going to be a big deal to him. (Nor should you make it one.) If he doesn't need to fight for control in his own life, letting others have control of their own worlds, won't feel like a loss of control to him. Only those who have so little control need to fight for control over others.

—Joyce
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com

I am just at a loss today at finding them so shallow in only seeing the clothes and/or makeup instead of the boy they know.

When my kids have dressed or worn their hair in any way that potentially sent a message of which they were unaware, I'd advise them. Holly did the Britney Spears look a few times when she was too young to know what it could mean to nasty older guys. Marty went with his head shaved to the first Live and Learn conference (maybe the first two or three) and I told him that in different parts of the country people could misinterpret that, and he needed to be aware of it.

When a kid makes an informed choice, they need to live with the consequences.

over the years we have been able to co-exist and maintain our friendship without bashing each others choices.....until now.

She's not bashing your choices, she's uncomfortable with your son's choices. Having let him make choices, you need to let the natural consequences play out for him. That's how he'll learn when and how to dress in ways of his choosing.

Friends for years doesn't guarantee friends for life, in any case, with anyone. If he made his choices just to keep that friend it wouldn't be any healthier than making his choices to keep his girlfriend happy. Maybe help him consider the reasons for choices.

I think it would be wrong to condemn your friend for her attitude.

I've lost friends over the years. In a discussion just a couple of weeks ago about someone who's a friend of several people I know, I mentioned that she has never warmed up to me because she was unhappy I had homeschooled. She's still waiting for me to send Kirby to school so she can be my friend again, I said. And it's funny, since he's 21, but that's basically the deal. She was kinda playing freeze- out with me, and I chose Kirby over her. It was an easy choice for me, but she didn't understand it.

—Sandra

On unschooling food:

I need some help getting my (and DH's) concerns under control.

I just gotta point out how enlightened this ^ above sentence is!! The very best place to begin is my own thoughts that stand in my way -- somehow it's never about the kid, is it? ::bg::

First I'd recommend losing (internal *&* external) judgment over what's nutritious and what isn't. Even candy nourishes. For me, there is something soulful in the eating of my favorite sweet. I've worked hard to quiet the voice telling *me* I'm creating another dimple on my ass and to focus on the voice that's saying "thanks, that's just what I needed, right here, right now" Personally, I really don't like sundrops over M&Ms, so sometimes the *organic* or *healthier* options just don't taste good. Organic Coca-Cola that actually tastes good??? 'twould be my dream come true!!! (as a second, better option I sometimes treat myself to an imported from Mexico coke, as it's still made with cane sugar :::vbg:::)

Is there a fear in him that you're going to begin restricting his candy?? Is he feeling your disapproval and thereby binging before it's taken away?? Can you bring more chocolate, maybe more chocolate with nuts, so you're able to see some nutritive benefits while he enjoys? How about *making* candy together? Bringing candy in as a worthy member of the tribe might help him see the permanence of the availability. Can you shift your perspective to one of 1-year or 5-years and see the spikes and dips in his sweet consumption? there's a natural ebb and flow... Hayden does sugar spikes and also does protein spikes, where he'll only eat meat (no veggies, no fruit, no breads) for a week or longer. I'm cooking burger after burger and steak after steak and chicken breast after chicken breast and then --suddenly-- he wants a spinach salad. I've been concerned about his size, and knowing how incredibly UNHELPFUL it was to have family make comment on my body as a child (gotta love it when morbidly obese folks call a gangly 14-year old "Thunder Thighs") I've made sure not to comment to him. HE has made comment to me about his own comfort with his body style/shape and what can be done about it. We'll talk lightly about food choices, mostly focusing on "moving more" not on good vs bad foods. Sometimes we talk about the "why" of eating and what leads to the obesity we see so prevalent in my family; after he asks or comments, not in response to *his* eating.

Add to that the minor annoyance of pop cans that he likes to bend and twist apart and leave lying on the floor all sharp and pointy, pop tabs torn off & bottle caps and left everywhere, and whole cans and bottles tossed on the floor, behind the couch, on the > furniture, in the yard-wherever it lands.

Does he know cans=cash? This helped with Hayden (who loves all things money!) keeping cans collected in one spot so we can cash them in (a big bonus in our move to OR is the machines where we put the can in and get a nickel each). We also have a little container for our tabs to help the Ronald McDonald house. I found putting a small garbage can near the candy eating section helps -- maybe not him, but I don't have so far to go when I'm picking them up!! Our cousin made long chains from starburst and mamba wrappers (I think I saw Abbi doing that at L&L??) which is another great incentive to collect the wrappers and keep them from getting thrown/blown away.

I'm NOT comfortable with chemical sugar-substitute sweeteners,

I confess this is a *BIG* one with me!! We do read labels, definitely as an "informed consent" not restriction. Hayden knows his dad had a brain tumor. Hayden knows dad's doctors told him *never* to have nutrasweet. Hayden knows it freaks me out. Hayden knows he has choice about what happens to his body.

Just last night he bought a big pack of Juicy Fruit (it now has sugar, HFCS *&* aspartame, oh wait, AND most recently added yellow food coloring!!!)... I didn't have to say anything except YES with a smile! I didn't have a reaction, he already knows what he needs to know to make his choices. So we're pulling out of the parking lot and he says, "I think it's okay for me to have nutrasweet as I'm just a kid and it's not as dangerous because I'm still growing and changing" "Well," I said, "I think it's maybe more dangerous for you, as your brain is still developing, building bridges between connections and maybe the excitement that nutrasweet causes may interfere with that, so it should be safer for me... oh wait, maybe not! at my age, the bridges are collapsing and maybe that excitement might cause the bridges to crumble more quickly and easily. I don't know, really, I don't think anyone really does" And that is the truth, we don't know. For me that's the scary part. For Hayden it's not. He happily chewed his gum, guilt free. It'd sure be nice if Wrigley's had remained aspartame free, but it didn't. It's nice my kid can remain food-guilt free.

but he's found a flavored water that has aspartame in it,

There is flavored water with Splenda. Artificial yeah, but not a neuroexciter :) Still has an aftertaste to my sugared tongue, not nearly as bad as nutrasweet!

Oddly enough, sometimes, its not the *consumption* that seems to be the big thing. He'll swish it in his mouth a long time before drinking it. Or he'll put some in his mouth and spit it in cool arcs in the yard or make wet patterns on the porch or sidewalk. Sometimes, he'll shake one up and open it just to watch the fizz go all over. Or just pour it out of the can/bottle to make neat patterns. He must have used half his pop in this way about 3 weeks ago.

I've purchased flats of store brand soda specifically for this purpose!! I've run over cans with my car, they've slammed cans on the ground (which is really cool to see!) they've shaken and squirted to their hearts delight and at less than 10 cents per can, I have no justifiable complaints! Full cans of soda on dry ice make really, really cool sounds!!

I'm sure a good portion of this whole thing is we parents needing to relax a bit and deal, but I don't know *how* to do that.

Sure ya do!! Breathe, baby, breathe!! Smile and love and don't dwell.

Oh, an afterthought-we have parades here where they throw candy to the kids along the parade route and tootsie rolls are very cheap and most parade units throw those. Both boys *have* had their fill of tootsie rolls (at least the chocolate ones), and neither will eat them anymore.

You're so lucky!! We can't have candy thrown at our local parades (city ordinance!)... they must figger the kids 'round here aren't smart enough to distinguish between running in the street at a parade for candy vs running into traffic.

—Diana

[The] comment

"This* is the component I see missing from the morbidly obese folks in my own family - food is more comforting than mama; not at my house!"

May be one of the causes of childhood obesity... but I feel it important that we look further...

. Being obese most of my life at the worst being 5'3' and weighing over 300 lbs( until about 10 yrs ago when I lost 150 lbs) I have put a lot of thought into this... although I am considered a "crunchy" mom ( no white flour ,corn syrup, white sugar, preservatives...the list goes on) I have never forced my choices on my children but tried to lead by example and be open with my reasoning.... the result 4 girls from 6 to 18 yrs old who have chosen some sort of median between my nutritional values and the ones the world at large shows them.... are they thin? No all are on the upper curve of the weight to height scale and the 13yr old would probably be labeled obese.

some of this is genetics - but the thought that ' food is more comforting than mama' is far from the truth.... My mother controlled food... and was obsessed with weight - the result was me being a 300+ LB adult --- I have been a open minded, non judgmental, lead by example, fun supportive unschooling mom... and yet I still have an obese child... I see it as her choice at this age and for her almost a rebellion against what society says pretty and perfect should look like.. she is beautiful,Active, intelligent and has a great self esteem. I have faith that as she matures the thought of taking better care of what she puts in her body for health reasons will become more important then bucking societies images of what she should look like.

sorry if this became a rant.. your posts and your Journeys with Hannah and Hayden have always been very inspirational to me and my girls...but it seemed like the thought that the choices left hanging were: 1.obesity equaled control 2. food is more comforting than mama

As parents we owe it to our kids to validate their choices even if we do not think they are the best, to have faith and trust that they are the best choices for them at this point in their life, and to not take blame or credit for what those choices are.

—Andre

I'm trying really hard to stay out of this discussion because health IS my area,

The moment one believes they know all there is to know about an "area" is the moment to reconsider.

My husband is a physician. I could say that "health IS his area", but the fact is that health encompasses a whole lot more than knowledge about food ingredients, chemical processing, pesticides, etc. I'm sure that he could match you in knowledge about these things, as he is a "holistic" physician (did graduate medical school but has focused primarily on natural/holistic health). This information is only one piece of a very expansive puzzle however.

and I really don't think this is the list to get advice from about food choices,

I disagree with this completely. This list, in my thinking, is your next step to higher thinking about food choices with your children. If you are controlling this area (and possibly other areas) you are withholding information at the least, and whit holding trust of your children, at the most. If you continue to make these choices for them, they will believe that they are not smart enough to figure it out for themselves, or at least that you think so. This really does damage relationships. I am imagining that it is hard for you to see this right now, because you are posting so strongly against it, however we are intelligent people who may even have the same information about food that you do, and we are speaking from many years of experience, some of us with adult children now. It may really go against your thinking in this moment, but I would suggest considering that you are listening to a "stuck" recording about the way it should be with food. Sandra and Joyce have incredible sites so full of information from experienced unschoolers who have shared their real-live stories about this very subject. Have you read any of that?

It would be good to also point out that all almonds are now pasteurized, so there really isn't anything left in them that is nutritious,

How do you know this? Have you been part of studies that show this? First of all, it would be extremely difficult to prove. Secondly, who is doing these tests? And why? And who gains from them?

Most of the information we receive from "official" sources have their own agendas. How many years did we hear about the need to drink lots of milk to receive calcium for our bones? Even though the calcium in cow's milk is not the same substance as human calcium? The Dairy AND Drug and Food Administrations knew this, but the exchange of money and power between the two organizations sparked this dairy campaign. Or at least that is the rumor I read about...I wasn't there to know for sure.

No matter who our sources are, unless we were doing the research, there should always be some question in our minds.

I've told the story before of every medical conference that dh has to attend each year, and how this last one, the physicians were required to visit all 120 drug booths (advertisers of the different drugs that are out) and have a sheet signed by each one that they were there getting the spiel. Now if that isn't one gargantuan hand feeding the other, I don't know what is.

Lots of our medical information received straight from our docs is driven by profit. Not the docs' profit, but their SOURCES' profit. Who knows what the motivation of our information sources are?

but then you guys think candy is "nutritious," so I guess there's no reason to point that out to you.

This is a snide comment made to over a thousand people. There was one post about candy being nutritive.

We are NOT talking about health. We are talking about health and relationships with our children and trusting our children and respecting our children and sharing information respectfully with our children and not letting our own historical audio tapes cloud our thinking in this moment right now and about how to be with our children so that they know and love life and themselves and about knowing that our children want to be healthy ultimately and with all the information and choices available, will find the perfect path for themselves to be healthy.

It's a process, it takes time, it takes real trust and knowing that all is well, even when our kids make choices that aren't our choices.

I have four teenagers. They have had no limits on food. They know what it is like for each of them to eat too much of lots of things...candy, papayas, chocolate cake, processed food, organic meat...they know because they have experienced it. They've also read a whole bunch of information and heard a whole bunch of information from us, from TV, from the internet, from friends...when life is expansive, all the information is right there. My kids are all quite thin (don't know if that is connected or relevant) and most of the time choose what I consider healthy food. They want to be healthy. They like the feeling of a strong, healthy body. They DON'T like the feeling of yuckiness, which comes from different sources for each of them. I could not guess how each of their bodies responds to different foods. They are the only ones who can really figure that out, and they have.

My kids give me grocery lists that say "mangos, organic apples, spinach, Ranch dressing, Amy's white cheddar shells, ice-cream, free-range eggs (because, not so oddly enough, the thought of organic eggs from pent up chickens isn't nearly as appealing as inorganic eggs from free chickens...they support the latter)". One of my four will ask for candy every now and then. Usually he writes Purely O's and milk. The other three hardly ever ask for sweets. They're just not into them much. They've tried a lot of all kinds of food over the years. They know what makes them feel yucky, and every now and then will eat stuff they like but makes them feel bad, and that's that. It's not an obsession, they don't crave or sneak or feel guilty or bad about it. They get it when they want it and in turn they don't want it all that much.

I know we wouldn't be in this "healthy" place today if I limited their experiences with food.

—Jacki

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