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Unschooling Discussion...
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On flow and exploration:
This is my response to an email I
received this morning:
You are nuts! Children need boundaries, rules and expectations!
You're right. Children do need help figuring out the world. They can't
do it alone. And that's what you've experienced: hands off parenting.
Parents who don't give their kids any guidance or feedback or help in
making decisions. Basically kids who are trying to reinvent the social
wheel. And of course most of them will get it wrong. Yes, I've met
those kids too. They can be nasty.
But what I (and others I know) are talking about is an entirely
different approach and it's hard to grasp when the only models most
people have experienced is rules or no rules. Respectful parenting is
neither of those. It is a relationship and partnership with a child. We
are there to help and guide them. We are there to provide information
and help them figure things out. We aren't there to make them do it
right but to help them try things out and problem solve. Help them
figure out how to get what they want while respecting the rights of
others.
Basically we help our kids figure out how to live in the world. Not
step back and let them figure it out! (That would be cruel.) But be
their support and information system as they try out ideas on a
situation.
And as a teacher you know that just telling and making a child doesn't
ensure that they've actually learned. Or that they truly deeply
understand in a way that they can apply it when they encounter it
outside the classroom (or even on a problem that's presented a little
differently).
Just skimming over your web site drove me
crazy! I am a teacher and everyday I see kids that have been brought up
on your philosophy. They are a pain in the butt ( as well as their
parents) and the other children don't play with them as they are bossy
and self centered! AGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Yes, I agree, kids who are being raised with hands off parenting are a
pain in the butt. There are parents who substitute giving kids things
instead of giving them time. Or who "lovingly" :-P step back and let
their kids work out their differences often by bullying other kids. Or
parents who approach life with the sense of the world owes me and mine
and models how to grasp what you want and damn everyone else.
Kids like that have been, essentially, neglected. They're growing up
needy of deep, personal relationships and trying to grasp what they
need from others around them because their parents aren't providing it.
But they have no clue how to do that. It's very warping.
Fortunately that's not what I'm talking about!
I bet your children are spoiled...
And I'm sure that would be the guess of most people who think I'm
promoting hands off parenting! And they'd be right if that's what I was
talking about.
I'm sure you've experienced kids who are obedient to their parents and
terrors behind their backs. And the parents are totally clueless.
No, my daughter is a delight which isn't just my opinion but is
feedback from adults who've been with her when she's not around me. And
they invite her back. That's probably not what most people would say
about their 15 yos! She's helpful and respectful.
...lazy
She asks me several times a day if she can do anything to help. And
helps willingly when I ask. Hey, and she doesn't even grumble or roll
her eyes!
She started taking college math courses at 13. Not because she's a math
whiz -- more art and writing oriented—but just because she
thinks it's fun. :-) (The other college students said they were under
the impression she's anywhere from 17-20. She was varsity on the high
school cross country as a "freshman" (she doesn't attend but can
participate in sports) and now as a "sophomore" and enjoys running and
training and takes supporting her team very seriously. She attended
meets and practices last year even after she was injured just to
support the other kids on the team.
No, she's far from lazy or spoiled.
And, having just gotten back from an unschooling conference of 500
people (moms, dads and kids), I can say that of the other kids too.
While they had far more freedom than conventionally parented kids, they
were far better behaved. Can you imagine several hundred kids running
around a hotel, often on their own, and not
destroying things and getting in trouble with the hotel? If just a
classroom is taken to the museum for a field trip, there's always
problems. But I can say I don't have to imagine respectfully parented
kids not destroying things because I've experienced it. The hotel even
wants them back
When the world is divided between what you're allowed to do and what
you aren't allowed to do, then it's natural—prominent in kids
but buried deep and suppressed in adults—to want to try out
the things people say they don't trust you can handle. Even if it's
something you don't really want to do! A rule is sort of like a
challenge to test yourself against.
When the world is divided into what you want to do and what you don't
want to do and you've had help getting what you want (and help not
stepping on others toes to get it! because the world does have rules
and expectation and conventions and consequences) then there isn't a
reason to do the things you don't want to do.
Because most of us have only experienced kids who've been tightly
controlled (or been let loose to figure it out themselves) it's hard to
imagine that every child isn't exactly like them, that their reactions
to situations won't be exactly like those kids. But I know from
experience that when kids are helped to satisfy their urges and
curiosity—while brainstorming ways that it can be done safely
and respectful of the rest of the world—that they don't grow
up needy. They aren't trying to meet their needs behind adult backs in
dangerous ways. And they're more accepting of the times when the answer
has to be no because most of the time the answer is "Yes, let's figure
out how to do that (safely and respectfully)."
and will never get along in the "real
world!"
Actually she's already living in the real world! And doing just fine.
While, at 15, she's not living on her own yet she's becoming more and
more independent every day, naturally growing into it because she's
dealing with real world problems in the real real world.
It's odd, but we all think of school as being the real world. And yet
when you step back and look at it objectively, school doesn't resemble
any other part of society outside of school.
As unschoolers we encounter real life problems being out in the world.
Instead of facing a lesson on how to do it right, my daughter and I
tackle it together with the attitude of "Let's figure this out!"
I think rule based parenting is similar to teaching kids how to do
percentages. The theory is that if you make them do it right long
enough then they'll internalize how to do it right and will have,
therefore, learned. And as a teacher I'm sure you've experienced kids
who go through that process and still don't understand. Or can do it
mechanically but really don't understand. Or they forget.
I think respectful parenting is similar to learning to ride a bike. The
bike, gravity, pavement all provide feedback on whether you've got it
right. Or right enough to work. And then you work on refining it. And
you don't forget because it's learning by doing. Learning through
immersion. We don't make them do it right. We help them think through
the problem, provide information, and help them as they try out
solutions. It's often the less than optimal solutions—as long
as they aren't going to injure themselves or harm others—that
are the most instructive because they can see why
other ways work better. They can see and experience the consequences
and the learning is far deeper than being told how to do it right.
The unfortunate thing is that most people will assume that this works
for me because I have a good kid. But I know—because others
have come from rule-based parenting to respectful parenting and seen
the change in their kids—that it's because being respectful
of her models and encourages respect. And it works beautifully. She's
kind and sweet—not even ever followed by a "but she has her
moments"! —and most parents don't get the opportunity to say
that about their 15 yo daughters.
I know there's this great big hurdle between what
I'm saying and what you imagine I'm saying. As they say in order to
fill a cup with something new you need to empty it first! When kids are
doing something wrong or mean it seems the only answer is control,
punishment and lectures. That idea is what needs to be dumped out
before a new idea can begin to fill it. (And you don't need to keep the
new idea. You can put the old idea back in if you don't like it But
rather than assuming they've done something wrong, and instead
assume they don't have the skills and understanding to meet their needs
in ways that don't hurt something (or themselves), if we instead help
anyone who's hurt, help clean up the mess, and then help the child get
what they want in a way that's safe and respectful of others (and it
may not be a direct path to it, but a step in a different direction)
then they grow to understand that parents aren't there to stop them but
to help them get their needs met—in ways that are safe and
respectful of others.
It's hard to picture, I know. We're all used to kids who are trying
every which way to get what they want because their parents and other
adults are only helping with the wants the parents agree with (and
often put conditions on them "You can if ... you work to pay for it,
you do your chores for a week without complaint ..." So we assume that
it's natural for all kids to want outrageous things and will go wild
with freedom. Because controlled (and neglected) kids do!
It seems to make sense that without controls that kids will eat ice
cream for breakfast everyday, watch nothing but TV and play video games
while eating chips and drinking Coke, and they'll move onto drugs and
smoking and sex and driving fast. It seems that the only reason kids
don't do those things is because of control. And yet it isn't so. When
kids know that the adults in their world are their partners, there
isn't a need to try to meet needs in unsafe ways. And people will ask,
"If your daughter wanted to try drugs you'd let her?" But that
situation is unlikely to come up because she doesn't have the factors
in her life that are driving kids to drugs. She doesn't need to escape.
She isn't pressured to be other than who she is. She doesn't need to
try dangerous things when others aren't around to stop her to see if
she can. It's a totally different atmosphere than most kids are growing
up in and it's very difficult to explain. But it's a delight to
experience the effects of because I can truly say I like the person my
daughter is.
—Joyce
From further along in the
thread...
Your post struck a chord with me. I felt like expanding my universe
more lately. I started many new activities and delving into more
interests this last year. While I have dabbled (I love that
word—no
negative connotations for me!) in many different areas, I find myself
more surprised by the passions that were there all the time that I had
just not fully appreciated. I went searching for activities that were
outside my experience (like a pottery class). However, I ultimately
realized that the things I did everyday reflected passions I already
had even though I did not label them passions because they were
everyday activities (like cooking), or because they seemed trivial
(like Sudoku). My "deeper personal fulfillment" was more enhanced by
appreciating what I already loved more than by searching externally for
new ones. Horse farming, traveling, advocating for kids (LLL,
fostering, unschooling) sound like extraordinary passions that could
fill up a lifetime! For me, once I let go of the idea that I should
have more passions, I found that I was more able to just enjoy what
already was. Once I was enjoying what already was, I found that many
new things just seemed to flow into my life without any searching or
effort on my part. Now, I feel more passionate about what I have always
loved and I am pleasantly surprised by all the new and fun things that
have discovered.
—Beth
This
concept of "flow." It seems to have been a bit
of a theme for me this
week... Appearing in all sorts of places "real world"
and said by many on this
list in various threads, in different ways. This
whole idea of "going with
something" instead of attempting to control it. Letting go of the need
to have
anything (or anyone) be a certain way in order for us
to be peaceful and happy.
Including our partners and our kids. Especially our
partners and our kids.
It's an attitude to life really, isn't it?
When you practice it.. everything shifts!
Until you practice it, you won't
believe that it
will.
I wonder if this isn't the "something" that's missed
when people don't "get it"?
Thinking out loud...
On dealing with spanking:
I was in a weekly park group with some
women a couple summers ago. We
were doing a book discussion (non-fiction). I didn't particularly care
for many stances in the book, but I did enjoy connecting with people in
my community and getting to know them. The spanking issues was coming
up, and while I had let some other things roll off with barely a
comment, I knew I couldn't get by with this one. I had the knot in my
stomach, too, and considered skipping that session.
I went, though, because ultimately, I DID want to make a statement. I
felt someone had to speak up on behalf of children. It was pretty rough
in my insides, but we did manage to have a respectful discussion. To my
shock, the group facilitator expressed her opinion against spanking.
(She seems so far on the opposite spectrum than me in terms of
parenting style—all about rules and punishment.) The rest of
the group
was firmly in the camp "for" spanking. I don't know if it did anything
to open anyone's mind to another way of thinking. I feel certain that
the facilitator would never have spoken up if I hadn't. They did at
least listen. I actually count on of them among my close friends now,
though we disagree severely in certain areas. And as for the rest,
there is a respect there that wasn't there before.
I wondered how much my own deschooling, unschooling has empowered me to
speak up at certain times amongst the masses who disagree with me?
I feel stronger each time I am able to do it. And, I hope, I learn bit
by bit where, when, and how to speak up as graciously, gently, yet
honestly, as possible.
Overall, I still feel lonely and disheartened at times at some general
anti children attitudes that are so prominent. I just don't get
how people don't see the illogic in much of it.
—Susan
I
am sitting here, having to breathe deeply—CHOOSING to
breathe deeply—to get over the roiling pit of fear in my belly
I think you were at the worst of it right in this moment—when
you've done the thing you fear most, and you can't take it back, and
your body and psyche are figuring that out and integrating it into a
slightly different You. Now you are a person who
speaks up to
people you know, at least sometimes, at least this one time. All that
shifting and roiling will start to settle into acceptance—at
least,
it always has for me.
For me, I became more and more that person—nice about it,
yes, but
I kept speaking up, and I continue to learn how to speak up.
I had a similar experience on a local board recently—it was
not an
unschooling board but the owner had asked about unschooling and
parenting philosophies, and so I answered. And answered. I
mean, hey, there's a lot to say on the topic once you get started,
right? I tried very hard to stick to principles that people could
think about on their own.
It was harder with someone I see in real life, with
someone whose
son is a friend of my son's. A lot of mamas—the board owner's
friends—got pretty defensive. But the owner of the board also
told
me that she's been thinking about what I wrote, and has been trying
things out. When I tried to gracefully bow out of the conversation,
she asked me to stay and keep challenging her thinking.
And so as I said, I am continuing to learn how to be the kind of
person who speaks up. It continues to be scary sometimes. But it
definitely continues to be worth it.
Peace to you,
Robyn,
—Amy
In a discussion about spanking you don't have to defend or explain your
child's personality.
Absolutely RIGHT.
In fact, our nonspanked kids might appear to be a bit more difficult,
in certain ways, right? They expect more from us—more
understanding, more consideration, more willingness to help them get
what they want. They are more "work" and they are often more vocal
about what they want and what they think. We know this—we
expect and accept the extra "work"—we feel it is well worth
it.
Any parent can make a young kid "behave" well in front of the parent.
I'm SO not impressed with compliant behavior in young children. I'm
impressed with parents who tirelessly work with (not on) their kids and
focus on creating environments that help their kids learn, over time,
to get what they want in appropriate ways.
Kids who aren't punished and shamed will decide for themselves how they
want to behave in any given situation—eventually. And they
won't be scared (in the way Robyn described) of speaking out when they
feel it is important. They'll see their own behavior as a
choice—they won't feel that they "have to" be compliant and
they won't feel like they "have to" rebel, either.
But, when they're little and learning, they won't yet necessarily be
making the choices we wish they would. They have to learn—not
by
being left alone to experience consequences of their own behavior,
although they will learn from that, too, but with parents' help in
slowly developing an understanding of the true reasons for behaving in
certain ways, in certain places, with certain people, etc.
We unschoolers are very supportive of that learning process and we
understand that it takes time. We also have to be strong enough to not
care if other people think our kids need more discipline. WE have to
know that we're helping our kids learn instead of controlling their
behavior with threats and punishments.
And, if it makes those of you who have younger children, who are a bit
wild, feel more confident, now that my kids are older teens/young
adult, it is VERY clear to me that those kids who were more often
spanked and punished and shamed did tend to become sneaky and less
honest and less responsible, as they got older.
All of this is really to say, Robyn, that you did the right
thing—and it was right not to let your fears that people will
think your own kid is under-disciplined hold you back.
You'll get your vindication later—you won't care and won't
need it, but you'll get it. Those parents laughing about spanking a two
year old baby will probably have trouble with their own kids,
eventually—I really believe that. And, while they're either
struggling with how to respond to their teen's anti-social behavior or
living in complete denial of it, or seeing their teen become a
conforming push-over who is subject to dangerous peer pressure, you'll
be enjoying your independent-minded, but caring and responsible,
teenager, a lot. It has been my experience.
—Pam
Taken from a blog comment Robyn wrote after the spanking story, not on UD:
We can act in partnership with our children, see
them as trying to do the best they can with the limited tools of youth
and inexperience.
There many, many resources out there to help people who want to be free
of spanking, renounce coercion, and to enter into a relationship of
trust with their children.
Here are some links:
stopspanking.com
stophitting.com
neverhitachild.org
awareparenting.com
naturalchild.org
Stories of other parents who have stopped spanking, and don't regret
anything except that it took them so long to make that choice:
sandradodd.com/spanking
A list for parents wanting to stop spanking, run by Unschooling mother of three, Pam Sorooshian:
No More Spanking
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